Gavin Ashendon, former royal chaplain to our late queen. How are you? >> I’m really well and all the better be talking to you and to our mutual friends out there. Thank you. >> Thank you for coming on the channel. I always try and bring long- form nuanced conversations because I feel like we don’t get those from the mainstream media.
And I wanted to start by asking you, what do you think the late queen would make of life now under King Charles? So then you see I’d have to bounce that back and answer a question with a question not because I’m a politician but in order to try and tell the truth and then I’d say to you which late queen because you see there there are two queens at all times.
Um there is the queen who is a formal figure and she has no views. She has no political views. She has no meteorological views. Uh she is the head of state and she personifies the system. Uh, and and and then you have Elizabeth Mountbatton Windsor, the lady. Think of Russian dolls. So, you know, within the big Russian doll, Russian doll, Russian doll, Russian doll, and at at the bottom, you have a nice little figure called Elizabeth.
Now, she she has views, but she can’t do her job as a queen if she expresses them. In fact, the whole success of her queenship depends upon her never expressing the views of the Elizabeth in the middle. So, you’d need to tell me which of the two dolls you you’re talking about when you say the queen. >> The one behind closed doors at the palace.
>> Ah, we got an interesting we got some interesting views into her, didn’t we? When when some idiot in the palace decided it would be good to let the cameras in. And you know that was like as Pandora’s box. Obviously, he hadn’t read classics at at Oxford because otherwise he would know you don’t open Pandora’s box.
And by inviting the cameras in, they did that. And we be, you know, they began obviously to present us with a very happy idealistic family. But the fact is, um, people used to say they’re as dysfunctional as the rest of us, but I think they’re good or more dysfunctional than the rest of us. So, uh, I I think you know the the queen as I as I I looked at her and I know her no better than anybody else because the queen that I was presented with was the external head of state and she didn’t take me aside into the corner and say, “Gavin, let me share my anxieties about
losing grip on power for our family with you.” She has said other things to me and they weren’t those. But let’s say that you go back to her childhood and she was threatened with invasion as a child and her admirable [clears throat] parents who were very brave people uh taught her about duty and about survival.
She loved her country, she loved her family. Uh she did her duty par excelance and she always put herself second. I think as she as her family grew up she must have looked at them and think oh dear heavens which of these children that I’ve bred are capable of of managing anything and probably the answer was only an really the only grownup amongst them with any brains and integrity and courage which she partly got from her dad.
Um, but Charles, well, we’ll talk about him later. Andrew, everyone knows or thinks they know. Uh, Edward, nice, sweet man getting involved in VA or whatever he does now. Married to a very nice woman. Um, but not but not people you’d want to be at the front of the queue to save the family when the house is on fire.
So, the house has been on fire for a while now. And uh I mean the greatest the greatest problem was Diana of course and the queen very nearly blew it by by losing all sense perspective over the flag advice. So you know you didn’t lower the flag in Windsor when the monarch was there because you hadn’t done that since 1066 and those were the rules.
The queen was very good on the rules. She’d learned them and applied them. The rest of the country howled with grief and said we don’t care about your rules. We need some recognition of the fact someone we loved has died. Uh f your rules or whatever the the the response was. And then the queen got stuck because all her training was keep the rules.
And some adviser somewhere said, “Mom, if you keep the rules, you won’t have a palace left. Lower the fag.” So they did. But but it it was a moment when uh an early sign of the of what was to come. What you and I are going to be talking about now, an early sign the foundations had given way. there’s a kind of big uh there’s a big kind of sinkhole under the palace or under the democracy or under the establishment and and the buildings are slipping into it.
So, so now the sinkhole is opening up. Uh, I think she saw it and would have been very concerned. Did everything she could to keep the wheels on as as you would expect, a kind and good, sensible lady who’d given her life for others. And and well, I have to say for the system, I mean, one of the things I’d want to say to her if we were having a cup of tea in heaven is, was it worth sacrificing your life for the system as as it came to be in our lifetimes? >> You know, I used to think it was.
I I too thought duty, the empire, you know, British character, Englishness, Vaughn Williams, Shakespeare, Benjamin, but I don’t anymore. >> Life feels very different now. We cannot have this conversation without bringing up King Charles who is defender of the faith allegedly. >> Do you feel like he is doing a good job? Well, again, I have to ask you who you think he’s doing the job for.
Um, if he’s doing a job for us, I scarcely think he could be worse. Uh, I’ve written about why that is. I mean, it came a point where, particularly this last Christmas speech, I I begun what I had to say on YouTube by saying, look, I’m fed up with just saying how terrible this is. I need I need to say what he’s done, not just what he’s done wrong, but what he should be doing right for us.
Uh, and again, I I think that if you and I have a conversation, it ought to be, yes, here are the things that are wrong. They’re really terrible. We’re in really, really serious trouble. Um, but how can we put it right? Uh, and and I think that’s, you know, that that seems to me to be the responsibility for those who shout fire.
They need to say where the fire is, how bad it is, where the fire blankets and the extinguishers are, and can we save the house? It’s not just enough to run up and down and say, “Heck, I’m I’m afraid of burning death.” It’s not just us. It’s our whole culture. It’s our country. It’s our culture. Uh it’s it’s actually western history just this particular moment.
So we need to we need to be as sensible as we are alarmed and look for solutions. >> We’ve seen King Charles have the call to prayer in at Windsor for the Islamic Muslim community. We’ve seen him sign on to be patron of the Islamic Center in Oxford. This is all dressed up as cohesion and understanding other faiths.
Do you feel that the defender of the faith should be aligning himself so deeply with an ideology and religion that ultimately wouldn’t do anything for Christianity for the faith he’s meant to defend? >> Wow, that’s multi-layered. And I could waffle so but I’ll try not to waffle. There’s long form and there’s long form.
>> We’re [clears throat] in no rush, Gavin. [laughter] Uh I mean so first of all I think most of us today recognize that we have two parts of our brain. One which feels like it’s dealing with a conspiracy theory all the time and it it’s frightening and we think are we am I going mad? Why why is my brain on permanent permanently running a fire alarm saying you’re in such trouble? Um run and the other part of the brain that says well there are probably some sensible explanations for this so let’s let’s try and deal with
those. So let’s let’s do both. Let’s look at the sensible explanations and then see whether or not the fire alarm part of the brain is actually with circuits are working. Um so the the sensible part is that um part of the genius of the monarchy was to embody the values of the country and the commonwealth was part of it.
The commonwealth I think was a very good thing. Um uh I I don’t actually believe there’s such a thing as racism. I think there are there are differences at all points and you deal with the differences well or badly. They come as a threat or an enrichment. Um to to try and turn that into a kind of thought crime that has to do with a shade of someone’s skin is is just stupid.
We need to be far more grown up than that. The Commonwealth was a very good idea in terms of if if the British were going to go out and take over the world and dominate it. Um there was an exchange that took place. We got territory, minerals, economic stimulus. Uh, and they got roads, medicine, education, culture, and technology.
And you know, those are good things. So, uh, did they have a choice? No, they didn’t have a choice. But actually, that’s how the world works. They were probably lucky to get the British rather than the Germans or the Belgians. Belgiums were pretty nasty to people in Africa. Um, El Po gives a misleading approach of what the Belgiums can do when uh when they’re unrestrained.
So, you know, they got the British and okay, there was an exchange and it was it despite all the the BLM nonsense, an idiotic slavery reparation rubbish that that that subrettonous person who used to be Archbishop of Canterbury got involved with. I’m just sorry. It’s just it’s just it’s you know, you you you can’t even manage respect when it’s that stupid.
Um the exchange wasn’t bad on both sides. Obviously, it could be made better, but it wasn’t bad. And so, the royal family represented the benign way of doing something useful for the Commonwealth. And I think probably people in the last 50 years would say, “Well, it’s quite well done.” Um, a as a as a kind of cultural a show of cultural enrichment everywhere.
Um, there’s nothing wrong with with cultural enrichment as long as it’s not a euphemism for something else. Uh and so in that sense, Charles was brought up to say the Commonwealth is a good thing. He had a tutor. Um what was his name? He was a the tutor was a a hero um a follower of Kal Gustav Jung. Uh and the name will come back to me shortly, but essentially he he turned the young Charles into a kind of Yungian, a sort of therapeutically aware relativist who thought religion on the whole was a very good thing.
Van Lawrence Vanderpost was his name. >> Oh yeah. >> Um and um Lawrence Vanderapost is an interesting man. I I I taught I taught psychology at university for 25 years and we when we look at Jung we we look at some of the major exponents. Lawrence Vandos was one of them. So this was an early influence on Charles lots some some good to be said some dangers in it but that’s what it was.
Um and then he began to develop an interest in Islam and that looked like a sort of a piece of cosmopolitan eccentricity. Why why shouldn’t he? Um there’s all kinds of interesting things in Islamic history and culture. Uh and we thought, oh well, this is Charles being being culturally enriched doing his kind of Commonwealth act.
Aren’t the aren’t the royal family? And the fact is Charles wasn’t very clever. So it was a kind of sign of grownup interest in something else than you know good for him in looking over the garden walls. Um and therefore some credit to him. But the problem with Islam is there there are different versions of it. In the same way there are different versions of Christianity and of Bahai and there there are some very violent Buddhist activists as well as people who who sit in ashrams and and contemplate Nirvana.
Um you have to define what you’re talking about >> and Islam is as complex as as anything else. So what kind of Islam was Charles interested in? Well, obviously in Islam that appear to be benign, good at mathematics, good at art, um, good at Middle Eastern architecture and culture. Nothing wrong with that. Except that [clears throat] if you know about Islam, Islam is in fact a totalitarian movement of the of the I would have to say far right and use the word sincerely which has the ambition to take over the world, remove human rights. It doesn’t believe in them
and impose some degree or other something that looks like Sharia law. That’s real Islam. And one of the tricks that’s been played on us is to invent a term called Islamism. And Islamism is the pretense that the political side of Islam is separate and different from its religious side and not very good. But the thing is people don’t understand Islam.
What they need to know is they they everyone mistakes it for being a kind of Middle Eastern Christianity or or Judeo-Christianity. It it isn’t at all. Um Muhammad started off as a prophet. Um uh he got he got these um experiences from an angel and the angel said he was called Gabriel and Muhammad who wasn’t a fool a very actually a very competent guy said well you might be angel you might be Gabriel you might not what if you’re not and then this is where the satanic verses come in because in the Quran he says what if I’m being fooled you know
sensible question Gabriel said no no you’re not being fooled it’s it’s all okay so Muhammad calmed down decided he wasn’t being fooled it really was Gabriel and then he got a series of of um mysterious messages that form the Quran uh from notionally from Gabriel and but but what he’d done was he if you’ll just forgive a very brief lecture he’d set himself up as the latest Jewish prophet and you might say that’s a bit odd what’s an Arab doing setting himself up as a Jewish prophet the thing is the Jews had all these very exciting
interruptions from heaven for a thousand years so the the excitement of the Old Testament which is an amazing book is that here are these these these nomadic people sitting in Israel trying to keep the Philistines and the Amalachites and the Amorites away from them. And they keep on getting these guys saying, “God’s got plans for you.
” And they say, “Yeah, no, we’re not interested in that. We want we’d like, you know, the harvest and and um, you know, we’d like to be left alone.” And and they said, “No, no, you’re chosen. God’s got plans for you.” And so for a thousand years, these prophets, and they say the most interesting things, and they’ve actually got to do with a very high degree of ethics.
And then you get the ten commandments. And there’s nothing like the ten commandments in the whole of world literature. and also the Genesis story of creation which is a fantastic parallel to what actually science teaches except the Genesis stuff tells us answers the question why and the science tells us how so the whole Jewish thing is very very interesting and immensely powerful and very few people take it seriously Muhammad took it seriously and he said why haven’t the Arabs had any of these prophets he was kind of Arab national early early Arab
nationalist that’s me I I’m I’m the I’m the Jewish equivalent to the Arabs of of a thousand years of prophets I’m really qu And here it goes. And then he said, and Gabriel says, “Of course you are. That’s exactly who you are. And you’re in the line of Abraham and Moses and Jesus and Miriam.
” But the problem was that the people whom who were given these names had completely different characters to the real ones in the Old and the New Testament. So in other words, these these figures were given names, but they weren’t the same people. They were, if you like, deceptive um mimickry. And then having tried to be a prophet and interest people in in his latest, you know, I I’m the latest mouthpiece of God.
The people in Mecca said, “No, you’re not. [laughter] You’re a very ordinary. You’re a naughty boy. You’re very ordinary person. This is this this all this stuff in the Quran is a bit gobbledygook. We’re not interested. Go away.” Uh and and amongst the people who said that to him in Mecca were Christians and Jews.
And he he he needed the Jews to say, “Yes, you’re you’re you are indeed. We’re so grateful. you are the latest prophet. And he needed the Christians to say, “Yeah, Jesus got it wrong. He wasn’t the son of God. He didn’t rise from the dead. Actually, thank goodness you’ve come along because because you’re obviously better than he is.
” And it won’t surprise you to know that neither the Jews or the Christians were inclined to take him that seriously. So he then turned himself into a warlord and he went to Medina, which he captured, killed everyone who disagreed with him and said, “Now basically now you can accept me as a prophet at the edge of the sword.
” And this was terribly successful. and he he hits upon a winning strategy which is say I’m a prophet I’m going to tell you how to organize your society and if you don’t do it I’ll kill you and one of the first people it was a Jewish tribe who said we we don’t think you are he attacked them and he lined up 400 of their men and and some stories say he beheaded them personally and others say he got other people but he cut the heads of 400 Jews who said no you’re not and lost the battle and that started Islam’s uh great outreach into the world to turn
the whole world into is an Islamic republic dominated by Sharia law by the by the Quran, by the hadith, the sayings and and Sharia. And that’s Islam. There’s no such thing as Islamism. What you’ve got is people, it’s Muslims who apply Islam or Muslims who try and have a quiet life because they’re Muslims and don’t really want the the whole monty, full monty.
But there are lots of Muslims who always want the full monty. And that’s what we’re seeing going on in Iran at the moment. And the Iranians are saying, “But we’re Persians. We were never Arab fundamentalists. Um being being it’s true that the last king of Persia was a bit of a tatarian bastard and made life very difficult for us and we mistakenly allowed these ayatollas in.
We made a mistake. We made a terrible mistake. We want them off our back. Please free us from Islam. And then the United Arab Emirates are saying at the moment, well, we know we’re Muslim, but actually we we we’d like to kind of tone down the Islamic bit and therefore we’re not going to send our students to the Great Britain because the kind of Islam they’re getting is so dangerous that we will become the new Iran.
So we are very frightened of the Muslims in Britain at the moment. They’re the worst the worst kind of of devotees of hardcore Islam. And when JD Vance says which is the first rep Islamic Republic to get the the nuclear bomb and he says it’s probably Great Britain, he’s not joking. Uh and and so so the reason I offer you that small lecture is because when you say King Charles got interested in Islam, what kind of Islam was he interested in? It was presented as though he was interested in Islamic weaving of carpets and the the design of
minouetses and um those moments when Muslims were really extremely good at mathematics and indeed they were. Uh but actually what we’re facing what kind of Islam have we faced in the 20th century? We’ve faced a a very seriously growing militant combination of religion and politics that is absolutely determined to take over every other society.
Uh and and we have become lazy, corrupt, self-satisfied. I think probably the the effort [clears throat] of first of all fighting the European civil war in the first world war and then finding ourselves fighting the terrible dangers of totalitarian communism on one hand and and and fascist nationalism from the Nazis on the other.
It exhausted us and then but but when you’re exhausted you need a source of renewal. You you need there’s a lovely verse in one of the Old Testament prophets that says without a without a vision the people perish. Well, we lost our vision. You know, the question is what’s our vision? And I hope I hope in a way your conversation with and mine is about the restoration of vision because otherwise the people perish and and our culture lost its vision in the exhaustion of the Second World War and hasn’t found it yet.
>> If we don’t find it, we’re going to have one imposed on us either from the left or from the right. So, we better hurry up and find one. You spoke about which Islam, which side of Islam is King Charles potentially aligned with. Through my research, I found that in 2010, the form well, Prince Charles at the time was selling hala meat.
It was lamb in his duchy range. And then people asked for it to be taken off and it was. But if we go back, that’s 16 years ago. For him to be infiltrating our meat market in a Christian country with halal meat is a very strange move for a man that claims he he just wants to understand Islam. Do you do you not think? I >> I do.
And so this is the point when the other side of the brain where the fire alarm is going off is is trying to catch our attention. And we need to put the two sides of our brain together. So here is Prince Charles being being in my benign version being eccentric, responsible, liking the Commonwealth, liking multiculturalism, casting his eye over the main face, informing himself, finding finding things of enrichment.
All perfectly sensible and fine. Uh except that halal is the most dreadful example of cruelty to animals. And uh why would you ever take a barbaric practice which is so horrible to animals and make any excuses for it whatsoever? I mean there are you know there are none uh so why would why would he then adopt that as part of the the duche um had to sit down and have a strategic decision.
You had to have people around a table saying >> someone had to say I know >> let’s promote this example of the most diabolical cruelty to animals for part of the the food market and and round the rest of the table there should be lots of sensible grown-ups who said no let’s not but the people who said let’s do this one the day how did they do that so this is when this is where the fire alarm going off says they can only have done that if they weren’t what they seemed to be um so again one of the reasons for dealing either with with mental illness
or with demonic is you ask the question, is there a straightforward naturalistic explanation for this? And if there is, you say, well, okay, that’s it. But when you when you in the absence of one, you have to find the other reasons. Uh even if they’re a bit challenging or zany or off off the map, and sometimes they are.
So in this particular one, the only other explanation is that somebody with Islamic allegiance decided it was worth taking the risk of the to put the reputation of the whole establishment at risk in order to introduce halal. Well, that’s a very odd thing to do. And it’s not even as if the numbers, what are the numbers in our country? I think I think the Islamic population is about seven or eight% in France is 10 or 11%.
And for the hood of my lifetime, I’ve been saying, uh, I’d like to refer to a Cairo taxi driver. Um, but to keep the keep the thought, why would he do that? Because the numbers weren’t weren’t enough. So, now let’s shift to numbers. I was being driven through Egypt in about the year 2000 and my taxi driver was a cop.
Um, and I’d been at a at a a retreat at a Coptic Orthodox monastery. I said, taxi driver ask me about I’m Coptic Orthodox, too. He said, “You know, you’ve got to watch out in England because you know what happened to us, don’t you?” I said, ‘Well, I think I do, but tell me what happened to you. Said, ‘Well, we were Christian in Egypt.
Uh, there weren’t any Arabs here. We’re not an Arabic country. Uh, we the the main character of the population was Coptic Orthodox. And um and the Arabs came in and they outbred us. And to begin with, they were nice neighbors. And then the moment they gained the upper hand, they began to persecute us.
and they now blow us up, close down our churches, persecute us and kill us and force us to be Islam is Muslims at the edge of the sword. Said you don’t want that. That’s how they work. You don’t want that in England. Uh and I thought that’s really quite interesting. And then over the last 25 years I’ve seen the numbers of Islamic immigration multiply enormously.
And you know 1% turns to two turns to four turns to six turns to seven. And suddenly the 7% have got I don’t know 15 20 Muslim mayors throughout the country. How does 7% of the population get that level of of and then then you know my my brain said that during the Syrian crisis when we took in Syrian refugees I know the demographics in Syria they’re about 90% Muslim 10% Christian.
So then you would expect if we took in Syrian refugees that 10% of them would be Christian. There weren’t any Christians brought in. So the people running the home office during the Syrian crisis refused to let Christian refugees in and only let Muslim refugees in. Who’s in charge of the Home Office that’s doing that? So it’s not just King Charles talking about halal.
Unpleasant but not terribly important. actually when it comes to discovering that the home office deals with prioritizes uh Islamic immigration then the political ambitions of this partic group of people become less than statistical they become actually quite threatening. So you go from Sadiq Khan to all the other mayors and you say what are you doing and I happen to know what they were doing because I had a fairly liberal stage and I worked with a number of Islamic academic colleagues and they told me what they were going to do and
and I the bottom almost dropped out of my world when I discovered Can I can I tell you the story? >> Yeah, I was going to say I hope you’re going to share it. >> You see it it was just the most extraordinary moment. Um I uh one of the things I did was as as an academic was I organized interreligious colloquia and basically these are rather posh events when when people who are very good at what they do get together and share their ideas and you get kind of brownie points if you can bring together uh Muslims, Christians, Jews, maybe a few
Buddhists, perhaps a bahigh or two, you know, and and um some seeks will be good. So um it’s it it’s part of good part of our culture. You get people together of different views to talk together and to try and understand each other and avoid some of the projective um propaganda stuff going on and and um it can be really quite useful.
I worked with a very eminent Islamic scholar in his 70s. Uh he had a PhD. He was intellectually very reputable and um known throughout Europe. And um we we rubbed along very well. I got a lot of cudos out of being his friend actually both academically and and socially and um I organized this humdinger of a colloquium and uh some really high quality speakers international reputation and uh it lasted a day but the university I taught at had a traffic problem at at 5:00 the the the campus got really clogged and everyone tried to
get off campus either by half 3 or 4 if you could slip out in time or or you stuck till 7. So just don’t be there at 5:00. Anyway, we were approaching quarter 4 and my friend said he was the last person to speak. We’d overrun. Somebody abused their time. I hadn’t shut them up early enough. Uh it’s always a bit of a balance.
And my friend said, Gavin, I know I’m the last speaker. I’m supposed to be the kind of, you know, the crowning speech of the day, but I want to go home. I I don’t want to get stuck here. My wife and kids want me back. It’s about to be Russia. I’m awfully sorry. I’m going to let you down. I’m going. I said, “No, no, you can’t go.
You know, you’re my you’re my cherry on the cake. You’re my you’re, you know, you’re you’re how I I get to be I get to be important. [laughter] If you go, you wreck my plan.” I didn’t say that obviously, but I mean, I would, you know, no, no, stay. No, I’m going. Anyway, he said, you know, and then he kind of became evunular and intimate and said, he said, Gav, I’m 70.
I’m a bit tired. I’ve been doing this for 30 years. I’ve been trottting myself around, being hospitable, being nice, being kind, and uh, you know, being the human face of Islam. People like me, I like them. But, oh, he said, “It’s time to stop. I’ve done it. I’ve I’ve succeeded.” I said, “Yes, you’ve succeeded very well.
You’re people like you very much, and you’re very well respected, and you’ve contributed so much to the kind of conversations we’ve had.” So, absolutely right. You you succeed. No, no, no. He said, “I don’t mean like that. It’s not about me. It’s it’s about the Islamic Republic of Great Britain. I said, “Excuse me.” >> Yes.
He said, “I haven’t come here for me. Uh me? I I’d be happier in the old country.” No, he said, “I I’ve come here for the Islamic for the Islamic Republic of Great Britain.” And the thing is, he said, “It’s now clear it’s going to happen in the lives of my grandchildren.” Actually, he said, “It’s going so well it could happen in the lives of my children.
” And I said, I’m sorry, I don’t understand. Can you explain? Well, yes. He said, it’s very simple. We we’re it’s all about democracy and uh demography. And so democracy follows demography. Uh we come here and there comes a point when we are here in such numbers that we get democratic weight and using our democratic weight, we ask for Islamic culture.
So the way it’s worked he said there are about 10 to 12 northern connivations in which at this date what 200 over 50% of the population under 15 are Muslim. Well he said in 15 years time they’ll all have the vote and then the over 50% of the voting population will be Muslim and at that point we will ask for Sharia law because it’s democracy.
We have the vote. We can ask what we want. We can vote for what we want. We’ll have Muslim politicians who will be our leaders and we’ll vote for them and they’ll give us what we want. In fact, he said, “You probably don’t know, but Tony Bear received a delegation of our Islamic leaders a couple of years ago.
” And they went to him and they said, “Tony, we’ve got the North of England. It’s now going to become Islamic. Why don’t you seed it to us now and gain an enormous amount of political cudos as being the politician who saw the future and made it happen in a kind of easy transitional way. We were very disappointed when he said no to us.
But we said to him, well, it’ll happen anyway, so it’ll just happen without you and you won’t get the credit for it. You know, too too bad for you. Uh well, Tony Blair decided it was something he couldn’t sell at the time, but guess what? 25 years later. So I mean immediately I went back and I looked at the statistics and of course he was telling the truth and so it became clear to me at that point that that very soon uh 15 years 20 years 25 years uh there would be um uh democratic democratically elected Muslims calling
for Islamic law in our country. Then a man called um Hulbeck wrote this extraordinary book called Submission which came out on the same day astonishingly the universe has a sense of humor as the Charlie Ebojournalists were gunned down on the streets of Paris. So on the day that on the day that the Muslim activists went in to punish these people for having published cartoons of Muhammad uh and shot them all dead.
Uh uh Hulbeck’s it’s it’s a you have to Google him. It’s H ui L E B E C q Zx or it’s a really trip to get wrote this book called submission. And what he said was essentially he foretold what he thought was going to happen in France which was that um in order to keep leen out the left would look for some form of political allegiance and with 10% of the population that the Muslims would make an Islamic party and the left would make a compact with the Islamic party and in the book the novel says the Muslims say we’re not going to interfere with government just give us
education we’ll take over the schools and the universities and and and and teachers can can keep their jobs but they’d have to be Muslims. And so the the hero of the novel is who teaches at a kind of fourth rate Paris polytenic he’s faced with a number of different you know he’s faced with his his love uh he’s had some experiences of Christian monasteries that have moved him deeply but to keep his job he’s got to become a Muslim and so the question is what does he do he becomes a Muslim and France submits and of course Islam is about
submission the the the god of Islam is not the same as the god of the Jews and the Christians he’s an unknowable God who requires your unconditional obedience. You submit. So the name of the book was was both theological and political. So um and that’s what will happen here. We saw the beginnings of it with the Gaza.
Everyone is saying why are the police allowing Palestinian u um uh Muslim activists to wander through our capital uh being governed by different laws than Christians. What is the because that’s what two-tier policing is and two-tier policing is essentially a reflection of the success of Islamic politics through the democratic pressures that have been produced.
And so we got these so-called independent impeach and they’ll do anything. The establishment for the whole of my life has been doing anything to keep the word Islam out of the news. So when the Muslims blow up our teenagers in arenas, they’re called terrorists. And when this whenever when when Islamic violence erupts somewhere and people say this was not a terrorist incident, meaning the Muslims didn’t do it to you, >> but they so they and and we’ve become so um beaten up uh emotionally and intellectually by this censorship that’s been going on for decades.
>> Well, we just now take it as normal, but it it’s not at all normal. We’re being lied to in almost every single news bulletin. Um and and and the fact is that we are in well what will happen is of course we will become the new Lebanon. Uh and the problem with Lebanon is it’s an experiment in na different in a hodgepodge of different nationalities and different religions and it’s a place of immense violence and tension and uh we will be partitioned here between the Islamic areas which will contain Muslim majorities and will exercise Sharia law
at a local level uh and non-Islamic areas and the question is where will the line run which bit will you live in and how long do you get to keep your non-Islam IC area because it’s not going to stop there. >> I mean, I would argue this is in fact currently going on. And if you look back at King Charles’s timeline for how he has overamplified, prioritized Islam versus Christianity.
It is impossible to deny he is part of a globalist agenda that is working against the very values um that our late queen was working to protect. >> Yes, he he is. And and again, you know, the the fire alarm part of the brain says um says says that and then the other side of the brain says, well, is it that bad? But then we discover that New York has just elected its version of Sadi Khan.
Uh what’s New York doing with an Islamic mayor with a with a very heavy left-wing Islamic mayor who’s going to run incompetent policies that that most people disagree with in the same way that Sadi Khan far in my lifetime when I grew up and went to London where my father worked and where I lived um uh Caucasian English people were 90% of the population.
Now I think we’re down to 30%. So 70% of London. Well, you have to use the word foreign. I mean what that’s what the word foreign means. It means non-indigenous. So who did that to us? How did that happen? But more importantly, at what point did we consent? Nobody I don’t mean to be too too sort of dem demagoguic, but nobody ever asked me to vote for this.
Um it it was forced upon me. And at what point do you say my country, my culture, my neighborhood, my children, my daughters, my wife, the safety, the happiness of my culture matters enough for me to resist. So, and I’m this is this is a very difficult part of the conversation and I’m not quite sure how to say it because you’re not allowed to say it and if you say it, you get taken off air.
But let’s try and do it as gently as we can. Uh, are we allowed to resist in terms of our own culture? And if we did, what form would that resistance take? And and who would the who would the who would the struggle be between? >> Uh and and the problem >> we can resist. We just get put in jail or we get >> that’s so well what they in all so we can’t res in order to stop that resistance beginning they’re putting housewives in jail.
Uh it turns out I mean the the splendid people on trigonometry have done a program on uh which in which country do people get put sent to jail for internet crimes for thought for thought crime. Uh they they you surely it’s you bet it’s Russia. Putin is a nasty man isn’t he? I think we have 10 times the people in prison for thought crime for hate crime as anywhere else in the world.
>> So we’ve already been taken over. So, I mean, my my projection was uh and I can’t even take satisfaction from being right because it’s so awful. Uh I was fairly sure round about 2000 that what would happen was that somewhere between 20 and 25 the left would take over and they would knock the stuffing out of us with with totalitarian legislation that brought in hate crime, thought crime, all the Orwellian stuff.
and uh they they they’d get they could only do it for five years before we get fed up with them and vote them out again. But all they needed was five years to do it. And that would take us to 2030. And by 2030, we would have enough Muslims to have independent Muslim MPs. Uh and and of course the Labor Party would then promote Islam because that’s where it got its votes from to do it in the first place.
But when but but when the the crisis would come at the end of that that Labor um period of government when Islam would make a bid for power and I think that will happen in 2030. Uh and that’s that’s when some of the detritis will hit the fan and that’s when I expect the issue about how we defend ourselves uh how we get to stand up for our culture or not uh will really come to a crunch point.
And I and I don’t I don’t know the answer to that. I mean, part of the problem is that I’m a Christian and much that I like being English and I like English culture. Uh, though, you know, it’s mixed. It’s got its strengths and weaknesses. I’m I’m I’m a bit of a franophile. I’m talking to you from France where I have a tiny little mill by a stream where I write.
I I’m a Brexiteer, by the way. I firmly don’t think that we European bureaucrats, the blob should organize our life for us. But even though I’m a Brexiteer, I love France. I speak French. I speak German. I can manage a tiny bit of Italian. I’m not a little Englander. But I do believe in democracy.
Uh but but can I can I fight for my culture? I don’t believe in people fighting each other. Um and I I have a very really very serious philosophical and ethical difficulty. I see what’s happening. I see what’s being taken away. I know who’s taking it away. And it’s not just culture. it it more importantly it’s my rights to freedom of speech and my right to vote and my right not to be put in prison for what I think that’s what’s being taken away how do I fight for that so this is this is this is now now you take me to the limits of
what I know I became a Roman Catholic partly because I began to be more and more uh offended against the propaganda that the establishment the palace the royal family the institutions of the country uh had put out and I discovered that the version of history I taught wasn’t true. And then when I discovered what it wasn’t true and who paid the price for it, uh I I became more impressed by Catholic theology, Catholic philosophy, by what by essentially our culture had been made by Catholicism.
Medieval Europe and the Europe that developed the scientific revolution was all Catholic in terms of its inspiration. So most people when they hear Catholic think of the troubles of Northern and Southern Ireland or they think of of deos and Spaniards and the Armada and stuff like that.
But actually we need to get beyond that kind of rather childish uh porative characterization to the to a kind of clash of civilizations idea. >> What what are the major ideas that are in conflict? And I I try to suggest to people that instead of getting bogged down in definitions, what you need to think of is is three figures. There’s Jesus, there’s Marx, and there’s Muhammad.
And and and the people who follow all three of them. They are the three most influential people in our culture. And they offer us societies that are very very different. The Marxist societies we know about, we see them in China and Russia behind the Iron Curtain. You don’t want to go there. They killed a 100 million people in order to bring about those societies.
And they don’t work. As Jordan Peterson and others have shown, equality of outcome doesn’t work. They’re dangerous. They’re murderous. Don’t go with the Marxists. It’s really serious. But we have gone with the Marxist. Every purplehaired middle-aged woman who screams about toxic masculinity and equality of outcome is is pushing is pushing that Marxist agenda.
It’s just it’s come culturally rather than politically. They’ve stopped talking about the proletariat and said they’ve talked about trans rights. But it’s the same ideology. And then you have Muhammad and you look at what Muhammad the followers of Muhammad have done. Uh there is no there are no inventions in Islamic societies because there is no curiosity. You do as you’re told.
They’re authoritarian societies where you do everything by the book. There’s no creativity. There’s no inquiry. There’s no discovery. Yes, they were quite good at mathematics and accounting. That’s true. But but but it’s essentially you have to ask the Montipython question, what have the Muslims ever done for us? And the answer in terms of culture and freedom is very little indeed.
And you have the followers of Jesus. And the followers of Jesus made the whole of medieval christryendom. All the medicine, all the science, all the all the freedom, all the human flourishing, all the creativity, it comes from the followers of Jesus in that culture. Well, then you’ve got two cultures. You got the Catholic one and the Protestant one.
I think the Protestant one’s run out of steam. It’s given up. It’s been taken over by both the Muslims and and and the Marxists. The Catholic one is the only one that hasn’t done. There’s a guy called um Alexander Dugan who’s a Russian philosopher. People think of him as being ultra-fascist and and Putin’s Rasputin.
Um I’ve come across him a few times and and his argument is well liber liberalism happened and and it didn’t work. Marxism happened and it didn’t work. Fascism happened and it didn’t work. We need a new geopolitical philosophy. And so he’s thinking of it in terms of sort of a symbiotic relationship with Russian nationalism. Doesn’t work for me.
But the question’s good. The question is, you know, we’re back to without a vision, the people perish. What’s our philosophy that’s going to hold at bay these two very, very powerful, totalitarian, freedom crushing ideas, Islam on the one hand, Marxism on the other. If we don’t find a philosophy, we’re absolutely cooked as as we appear to be at the moment. Yeah.
Yeah. And so that’s one of the reasons why I become a Catholic. Not not in order to recreate the the Lord and Irish troubles or to side with the Armada, but because one of the things that Catholics do is they say, for example, you’re not entire you’re not allowed to kill your children in the womb.
Those children in the womb are alive sentient human beings. And although feminism has some injustices to put right, you cannot kill your babies. It’s unethical. It’s murder. the moment I I was actually on a BBC radio show for four years. Faith and ethics phoned in and I didn’t care about abortion at all. I paid no to I, you know, it’s a woman’s problem.
Uh I’m I’m ashamed to say. And this woman phoned in on my faith and ethics program and she began to rant on about abortion. Oh god, another one of these fundies, you know, God give me strength. Let’s get her off air quickly. So while she was ranting, I did some googling and then so uh this would have been about I don’t know 90 oh 98. I I lose track of my life.
Um and it said that the number of terminations since the abortion act came in at that point was six million. And I thought if these are human beings, we’ve killed six million of them. And I said on air, I said I said, “God, that’s a holocaust.” because for me six million is a Holocaust number. Well, I was on the carpet the next morning and and the director of the station said, “If you ever say make that connection again, you’re out.
We’ll pull the plug on the show and you’ll be on the pavement within 5 seconds. Don’t ever ever ever do that again. I suggest you don’t interest yourself in abortion at all.” So, I then began to think about it and think, well, you know, that’s a bit of an overreaction. Well, maybe they’re not human beings. So, if they’re not human beings, when do they become human beings? And then you look at the science and and you know it’s a sliding scale.
Nobody has an answer. There isn’t one. You you I mean there so isn’t one that these dreadful people are prepared to kill their babies at birth. Now the legislation is going through the House of Commons. They’re trying to kill to have the rights to kill a baby as it’s born for God’s sake. What the hell has our culture become that we can talk about that with equinamity? You know of of all the precious things that make us human beings.
the love of your children and your babies is absolutely at the top. So, so due to this slate of hand of not being able to agree it’s a it’s a conception, which it obviously is. I mean, there’s no there just isn’t an alternative. And I can’t prove that it is, but I can prove it isn’t later. >> So, so we then killed six million babies. Well, that’s very bad.
No wonder we’ve got pension problems because they were human beings that needed to be play a part in our society. And then and then we started to kill the people at the other end, the old people who no longer are economically viable. I’m becoming one of those. And you know, the idea occurs to me if I get cancer, I probably ought to go out into the winter without an overcoat on and just lie down somewhere.
And then I don’t take up a bed in the NHS and I don’t take resources from teenagers who need leukemia. You know, there it’s a no-brainer. I I ought to do away with myself. The pressure for euthanasia is just enormous. >> Yeah. I spoke to Benhh Khabib actually about how [snorts] the Labor government are trying to get rid of the the older generation and just take no care of them.
I wanted to sorry I [clears throat] wanted to ask you there is many believe a problem within this country whereby Christianity values are being diluted diminished erased for other ideologies. Do you think reformer the party to sort everything out? >> Oh you asked the hardest questions. Well, as I’ve explained, um, uh, and I hope people who are not Christians can hear that I’m not doing this as a kind of, uh, you know, one of those awful people who just wants to impose their ideas on other people, make them like like them.
I don’t mind what other people think. Um, I’ve I’ve become a Christian by thinking quite hard and by failing a lot. Uh, I’ve I’ve I’ve kind of tried everything else. putting your own life in order managing your own needs, desires, and failures. It’s a very difficult thing. I I I’ve become a Christian almost as a kind of last resort.
I don’t need to tell other people how to behave. On the other hand, if they’re also come to the point of last resort, and many of us do live lives of quiet despair sometimes when things go badly wrong. You know, we’re only a couple of economic disasters away from the gutter. I I I told you, you know, as we started, I’m driven by two ideas of three really.
you know, one is going mad, the other is being put in jail, but the third one is being homeless and ending up in the gutter. Uh where you just need two tragedies and then particularly as a man uh you have no defense. So um I don’t want your your question about Christianity is uh I happen I I’ve come to the belief that the Christian view of the world which is very simple. There is an intelligence.
It didn’t happen by chaos. The intelligence is kind and all the best bits about being a human being reflect that intelligence. We’re made in the image of God. We’re perverted because we were given freedom of choice and something some some bad coding got in. And so we struggle with the fact that we’re made in the image of God, but we’ve got bad coding and therefore we need help.
And so Jesus is the savior who, you know, God says, I’m I’m going to I’ll take the wrap for this. I will come and and I will I will show myself to you and I will give you that help. And then I like the way that that the Christians under the influence of Jesus have received that help and the way in which they’ve helped others.
I mean the great the the beauty of much of of of of medieval and Catholic Christian in the west was about the help that was given or the when we abolished the monasteries we abolished the places that gave food to people who didn’t have any that started hospitals that were free the education that was free.
there was this great overflowing compassion of help which is at the heart of Christianity. But most importantly, it allows people their dignity and their freedom to say what they believe. Um, and that I’m about try and write an article on why the Inquisition was a good thing because actually the what the Inquisition did there’s this true speech and there’s free speech.
Free speech is is your opinion. Maybe it’s good, maybe it’s bad. Interesting, worth having, but it’s an opinion. And there’s true speech. let’s find out what’s really going on. And and the the Catholic Inquisition was a was an int was a >> an an institutional attempt to find out the truth and to keep records of it. Um and the real pe the real danger were the civic courts that they were the ones who burnt people alive without evidence and without due process.
What we got from the Inquisition was a discovery of the truth and due process. I that’s why so the answer is um the only vision that I can see that will be any help to us now and eating and drinking and you know enjoying McDonald’s pornography and cocaine and booze is not going to do it but that’s that’s our culture at the moment.
So um of these two of the three major ideas Christianity is being beaten up from both sides. The Muslims are trying to stop it happening and the Marxists are trying to stop it happening. To the extent that if you’re a Catholic and you want to pray on the streets silently near an abortion center for the souls of the babies who are being killed that day, the police will become become thought police and they will arrest you.
They’ll say, “What are you thinking in your head? Are you thinking a prayer to God on behalf of dying babies?” And if you say yes, they c you off to prison. That’s how badly uh freedom of speech, freedom of choice, freedom of intention and and the the restitutive vision of compassionate Christianity is being strangled in this country.
So I make no apologies for being a Catholic and being a Christian. I think it’s the only thing that will save us and and and uh and if you think something else, well, well, tell me about it. I’d like to make an allegiance with you. But for the moment, one of the things I’m trying to do is to call out the dangers from the left and from the right and suggest ways in which we should do this.
And after the question you asked earlier on, what should King Charles be doing? He should be setting he should be he should be our fire alarm. He should be saying as your as your king, you’re in danger of losing your freedoms to both the left and the right. And I want to act as a rallying cry to the faith, the vision, the wholesomeness, the values that made us what we are and allowed my family the privileges and the responsibilities.
I’ve had the privileges. Let me now live out the responsibilities. We need to hold back the left and we need to hold back the right. And we need a a re-energization, a reinvisioning of of of Christians. That’s his job as defender.
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